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My personal life has nothing to do with this discussion.
However, my point here is that even if you play casually, you may want to be able to play competitively. Allods is simply not a casual friendly game, thus many people call it 'p2w'. The definition of 'p2w' doesn't really matter in this case as long as you understand WHY people call it 'p2w'.
You made your personal life related to the discussion when you brought it up as an argument, no need to blame others now, coz it's your argument I'm attacking, not you personally.

Now as for your point about casual players willing to play competitively. That's exactly the story about myself. I'm a casual player, who wants to play competitively and I'm able to do that exactly because there's a cash shop. So your argument about Allods being unfriendly to casual players is absolutely invalid.

Some might argue the cost of barrier to entry the competitive play, but it's really low at the moment. You only need to buy a pack of rarities (20EUR per month) to be able to play competitively. If it's still too expensive, well then you really should play some other game.

And not only some other MMORPG game, but a game of different type, some MOBA or FPS or whatever where "win" mostly depends on how you play this very moment rather than how good you were at building your character and investing in its strength.

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Quinz

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so if the option of improving the char so much is unpleasent to you, why you dont you play on subscription-server then?

doing only a few rounds astral every day will get you maximum competitive there :P
Because playing on the subscription server is like playing a single-player game. You know it's nearly unplayable with that low population. It limits what content you can do and it will not give you the true mmorpg experience.

You made your personal life related to the discussion when you brought it up as an argument, no need to blame others now, coz it's your argument I'm attacking, not you personally.
All I said was that I'm "a casual player with a daily job and other real life activities to tend to". It was simply to explain that I'm playing casually and can't spend that much time on the game. I was not trying to make it sound like I have a better life than anyone else or something. So yes, saying that I have a "low life" if I can't or don't want to spend money on a game is quite offending to me personally, as well as calling me and others pathetic for mentioning something about my real life.

Now as for your point about casual players willing to play competitively. That's exactly the story about myself. I'm a casual player, who wants to play competitively and I'm able to do that exactly because there's a cash shop. So your argument about Allods being unfriendly to casual players is absolutely invalid.
I'm not sure if you get the point here. I'm saying this is exactly why people call the game 'p2w', because they can't within a reasonable time frame acquire what someone paying real money can acquire in a day. This is what I mean with "not casual friendly" game. But this is of course, like you say, if you're not able to or simply don't want to spend real money on the game. Or rather, if you can't or don't want to spend a fortune on the game. This game is expensive, it really is. Yes you can now buy the temporary items for a monthly fee, but then it sort of becomes a monthly subscription, which some people might want to avoid, since they're actually playing on a f2p server.

If it's still too expensive, well then you really should play some other game.



And not only some other MMORPG game, but a game of different type, some MOBA or FPS or whatever where "win" mostly depends on how you play this very moment rather than how good you were at building your character and investing in its strength.
That's also a point I was making in my previous response to AOP. Yes, I could play another game. However, the reason I'm still lurking around in this forum and still complaining about the current state of the game is because I actually like this game other than the fact it's, in my and many others opinion, p2w. I like its uniqueness in many areas and the content the game has to offer. I played the game just after release, and in total I've spent quite some time AND money on the game already. Even though I already spent a lot of money on different advantageous items in the game, I was still very underdeveloped compared to many others even with good gear score, because I was missing certain items which gives too much of an advantage, like certain stat and ruby scrolls, pat5 and not high enough runes, just to provide some examples.


Btw I'm at work and I'm bored, so this is keeping me busy ;)
“If you want to conquer fear, don't sit home and think about it. Go out and get busy.”
-Dale Carnegie

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.”
-Bernard M. Baruch

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I'm saying this is exactly why people call the game 'p2w', because they can't within a reasonable time frame acquire what someone paying real money can acquire in a day.
People don't spend money on the game and lose. It could be that they lose to those who paid more than them. Or they might as well be losing to those who are better players.

Admitting that you suck is extremely hard for a human being, it's much easier to blame some retarded developers/publishers for making a p2w game.

I got your point, yes.

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Quinz

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Admitting that you suck is extremely hard for a human being, it's much easier to blame some retarded developers/publishers for making a p2w game.
That might be true. However, it still doesn't change the fact that Allods is much higher on the 'p2w' scale in most peoples eyes than many other mmorpg's. I mean come on, the forum is cluttered with these 'p2w' discussions every day. It's a constant complaint that has been going on for years with this game. My.com as a publisher doesn't really get much love either, due to bad management of several games, not only Allods.

This forum has 90% negative threads. If this is mainly because of the community being too whiny or if it's the devs/publishers fault, I don't know. Probably a bit of both. But there's gotta be a reason this game has such a low population compared to many other games and why it generally has such a bad reputation, as well as my.com as a publisher.

It's not all on my.com though, it's also on the devs to improve their game. They are the ones developing and shaping the game. They decide the outcome and the future of it. Any changes made or not made to the mechanics or content in the game is done by the devs. If the community request a change and it's not happening, it's because the devs decide to not make the change.

When it comes to advertising and support I assume my.com is responsible. Who actually controls the prices of items in the cash shop I'm not sure of, however, I assume the devs controls what's being sold in the cash shop.
“If you want to conquer fear, don't sit home and think about it. Go out and get busy.”
-Dale Carnegie

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.”
-Bernard M. Baruch

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If the community request a change and it's not happening, it's because the devs decide to not make the change.
I remember community asked for EU/NA to not have combat mounts and P5. And the publisher listened. Just as they did for daily incense and mount food and church pots. Did it help to increase or at least keep up the population? Not really, and now after the merge we have those combat mounts and P5 anyway.

Now as for p2w argument. There are many games with much higher population and much more expensive cash shop. And I was really amazed reading their forums that nobody really complains about that game being p2w. Ppl enjoy it that way.

In AO it's just a matter of failed expectations. Ppl want to play a good quality game for free (as advertised!!111) and they want to pwn be competitive again for free. It's never going to happen, but for some reason ppl refuse to accept that and keep whining on forums.

I replied to one of that threads smth like: "AO is p2w and that's why we love it, now GTFO". Did anyone listen to my suggestion? No. What they kept doing? They kept whining and creating the same threads on forum. Now my question to them is: "Do you think it's gonna help? Has it ever? Do you think that yet another whiny thread is gonna make cash shop free for all or what?"

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Quinz

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I remember community asked for EU/NA to not have combat mounts and P5. And the publisher listened. Just as they did for daily incense and mount food and church pots. Did it help to increase or at least keep up the population? Not really, and now after the merge we have those combat mounts and P5 anyway.
They've already done too many bad choices. When you've done that much damage to a game and lost such a big part of the player base because of it, it's difficult to gain the players trust again. Most people would probably just uninstall the game and never return.
Also, it doesn't help that they implement more advantageous crap to the cash shop as soon as population and/or income decreases for a while. Removing pat5 and combat mounts was what the majority of players wanted and it would've most likely affected the population positively eventually, you just need to give it time. But they are way too impatient, they implemented it again only to increase income. It's a greedy move from their side and it just proves that they don't really care about what the community wants.

There are many games with much higher population and much more expensive cash shop. And I was really amazed reading their forums that nobody really complains about that game being p2w. Ppl enjoy it that way.
Can you give an example of such a game?
I can name a few games that are not p2w in my opinion. TERA, Rift, Guld Wars 2 and Wildstar are just a few examples. TERA has been around for a long time and still has a good population flow today.
Then we have the very successful subscription based games like WoW and ESO for example. You do pay a monthly fee, bu they're not p2w at all since no one can buy any advantageous items from a cash shop. This is also often believed to be one of the reasons why subscription based games have been so successful.

In AO it's just a matter of failed expectations. Ppl want to play a good quality game for free (as advertised!!111) and they want to pwn be competitive again for free. It's never going to happen, but for some reason ppl refuse to accept that and keep whining on forums.
Usually, these 'p2w' conversations starts when someone asks about the current state of the game and if it's worth playing or not. Some people will say it's p2w, then someone else says it's not p2w, and then the endless arguing starts. Just like in this thread lol.

Do you think that yet another whiny thread is gonna make cash shop free for all or what?"
No, it's probably not, but it's good to inform newcomers and returning veterans about the state of the game and what they should expect if they start playing.
“If you want to conquer fear, don't sit home and think about it. Go out and get busy.”
-Dale Carnegie

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.”
-Bernard M. Baruch

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Quinz,

you wrote the rarities pack for 1999BC has the flaw that you kind of have a subscription if you buy it regularly
(that would be 67 BC / day)

keep in mind the items from it become permanent after some time as you get the fragments and so on
you can also get only SOME of the items like only the runes and the statpoints while screwing the other things which will save you even more (honestly, who NEEDS the rubies / talentpoints / purpleearring)
further ideas, get only off runes level 8 and make defense runes from the shards, def 5 vs def 8 doesnt change so much
in PVE defensive runes almost dont matter at all i would even say (tested to take out def runes in PVE often, no real difference, bloodlust & concentration keep you on 100-90% nearly all the time)

pat 5 will be activated cumulatively, so use it when you need it use it not when you dont need it
it becomes permanent after some time
PVE so easy now, so if you just use it in BG it will be all good

regarding the tips above you can minimize your "costs" while still beeing "competitive"
for beeing "competitive", having top gear is the most important factor anyway... if you have all itemshop goods but inferior gear you will still lose vs the ones with only the rarities pack but max gear
and gear cant be bought from itemshop...
so in the end it comes down to gear

i would love to know whether someone who is complaining here about the itemshop ever has reached top gear... i guess not
ingame i had interesting chats with full geared players, they all were like "yes funny/silly ones dont get the part with gear, let them"

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Quinz

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for beeing "competitive", having top gear is the most important factor anyway...
Everything comes into play in PvP, especially when playing competitively. Every damage or armor boost matters, even if it doesn't necessarily matter a lot all the time. Besides that, acquiring the gear is obviously easier if you have a lot of advantageous damage/armor boost items etc. as well.

Anyhow, Allods is probably a perfect game for the people who don't mind spending a lot of money and/or time on the game, or for the ones who simply don't care about PvP or playing competitively.

You know my opinion now anyway, and I know yours. We don't have to take it further than this :)
“If you want to conquer fear, don't sit home and think about it. Go out and get busy.”
-Dale Carnegie

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.”
-Bernard M. Baruch

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Zitat von »Quinz«

They've already done too many bad choices.
So why bother with all the whine over and over? To warn new and returning players? Really? Doesn't it seem sick to you to lurk on the forum of the game you don't play anymore because "publisher had done too many choices" and keep whining in each and every thread around about how better the world would have been if the people lived longer and the grass was more green?

Zitat von »Quinz«

Can you give an example of such a game?
I can name a few games that are not p2w in my opinion. TERA, Rift, Guld Wars 2 and Wildstar are just a few examples.
Rift was P2P when I played it, Guild Wars 2 I believe is B2P, so these two don't really apply IMO, what's Wildstar I don't know, so can't really comment. But I googled fast for how p2w is Tera or Rift and the results show exactly the same discussions as we have here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TeraOnline/comm…s_tera_pay2win/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rift/comments/4…pay_to_win_now/

Which I can only accept as a confirmation to my thesis: those who suck, they suck in the first place. And they prefer thinking it's because those who win spent more on the game than they did. And they will keep thinking that way regardless of the game.

May be you personally don't suck in Tera or Rift, hence you believe they are not p2w. Just like AOP probably doesn't suck in AO, so he refuses to agree that AO is p2w.

Here's my example of extremely p2w game: Wartune. If you check the server list they run the game on (and only on their main site, while they franchise it widely) you'll see ~300 servers and each and every of them will have ~500-1000 active players. Population AO never had and never will have. And it's like 3-5 to infinity times more expensive than AO.

But if you google for it being pay2win the first result will be about how to actually pay 2 win. Which means that although nobody doubts it's p2w, you still have to master that part of the game as well.

Zitat von »Quinz«

Then we have the very successful subscription based games like WoW and ESO for example. You do pay a monthly fee, bu they're not p2w at all since no one can buy any advantageous items from a cash shop. This is also often believed to be one of the reasons why subscription based games have been so successful.
Lol. Although it indeed might be "one of the reasons", you shouldn't really skip the other one: TESO budget estimated at ~$200mil (among many others they have Kate Beckinsale voice-acting there, just so ppl who are not familiar with the game wouldn't refuse to believe the number right away) while budget of AO was ~$11mil. Guess you can now think of more reasons of a game being successful than just the monetization model.

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Quinz

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So why bother with all the whine over and over? To warn new and returning players? Really?
I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself. I simply still stick around here because I want to monitor the state of the game, and besides that I find these types of conversations quite amusing. I don't see it as whining, I rather see it as a way to discuss the state of the game and share opinions. Some people may take it a bit too serious though.

And yes, when someone posts a thread and asks about the current state of the game (which 90% of new threads are about), I believe it's fair to inform them of the current state and your opinion of it. After all, that is what they're asking for.

Rift was P2P when I played it, Guild Wars 2 I believe is B2P, so these two don't really apply IMO, what's Wildstar I don't know, so can't really comment. But I googled fast for how p2w is Tera or Rift and the results show exactly the same discussions as we have here
They're both f2p today and they both have microtransactions. Yeh GW2 is still b2p today but they still have the f2p model and could technically have been running a p2w model, but they don't, which is the point.
Wildstar was also b2p first, but went f2p later. It's a great example of a game which basically only sell cosmetics in the cash shop, quite similar to TERA.

I don't think it's fair to do a "fast googling" and think you found reliable information. There will always be some people whining about a game, no matter what game it is. You have to look at the whole picture and see what the majority of players say, and what the general reputation of the game is.

With that said, the TERA thread you posted is rather about the game NOT being p2w. There's this one guy arguing that it's difficult to achieve something as a casual player or whatever but pretty much everyone are contradicting this with explanations to why it's actually casual friendly. And since I have played the game myself I can also confirm this.

Regarding Rift, I guess I was referring to the time I used to play it, which was a few years ago. I know it was considered by many to be one of the least p2w MMORPG's, but according to this reddit thread it seems they took a p2w approach in the last year or something. Maybe they're not doing so well anymore and are desperate for money. It's quite common to take the p2w approach when your game is losing players. Just look at Allods (however, in Allods they actually took the p2w approach when the game had many active players, which caused the opposite to happen, they lost players).

Lol. Although it indeed might be "one of the reasons", you shouldn't really skip the other one: TESO budget estimated at ~$200mil (among many others they have Kate Beckinsale voice-acting there, just so ppl who are not familiar with the game wouldn't refuse to believe the number right away) while budget of AO was ~$11mil. Guess you can now think of more reasons of a game being successful than just the monetization model.
Yes you're right, these games are much better developed and with a higher initial budget, which obviously makes the game more appealing in most cases. Just as an example though, vanilla WoW was made with a $63mil budget, and it turned out to be the most successful MMORPG ever made. WoW does of course also have other things that probably contributed to its success, but if that's an argument, Allods also had many unique things that made it successful in the beginning. The different p2w approaches they did (e.g. incense and cursed gear) were the things that destroyed the game in the beginning.
“If you want to conquer fear, don't sit home and think about it. Go out and get busy.”
-Dale Carnegie

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.”
-Bernard M. Baruch

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Quinz« (wcf.global.shortTimeFormatLocalized)


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you wrote the rarities pack for 1999BC has the flaw that you kind of have a subscription if you buy it regularly
(that would be 67 BC / day)
I am not very sure, but you can choose a coupon after 28 days of daily gifts which allows you to buy the pack for 1000 BC, I received it for free on the new server and I saw that it is in the top tier rewards of the daily stuff. So if you play everyday and do at least an activity you can get the fragile items at an incredible price after one month, actually the same as the p2p subscription. I haven't heard many players talking about this coupon. I hope I'm not wrong.

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