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21

Thursday, May 15th 2014, 6:55pm

I say Psionicist!

What? off-topic? :/

Both can tank, both can DPS, both get doomed by Bards

You should be friend and kick Bard Asses instead of arguing 8)

22

Thursday, May 15th 2014, 8:08pm

Zaguardo

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Yes i'm a fat killer :)


yep, but can u 1v1 aegmar down <3? or outdmg him in raid? this is the point.

and yeah, bard pwns both but still pally is way more useful than war lol is a fact XD
~ Do what you want cause a Pirate is free ~
~ You are a Pirate! ~

23

Thursday, May 15th 2014, 8:46pm

Resha

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I've never seen a bard outdmg a war in raid (at least in single target)...
Drood retraité !

24

Thursday, May 15th 2014, 9:00pm

Paladin=more sustain and more heals and more support (they can battle ress and they can AOE heal party or raid which can be 1 min CD or may be lower and they can also shield a party member with lowest hp %) while warriors have stony resilience passive shield and are far more selfish than paladins (not much support) but as for tankiness Warriors have dodge rubies aside from stony resilience while paladins have barriers but the most common class in tanking is paladin so Idk what to say but I saw some warriors tanking well after merge as well as paladins.Paladins after all have a self heal and a party heal + a heal amplifying buff AOE as well as some other rubies increasing your healing so they can heal much which enables them to solo things better than warriors as they have that healing factor.Finally Paladins have a range advantage as almost half of paladin's offensive skills are ranged while the only ranged skills for warrior are 2 bow/cross bow skills so you can kite mobs in hard situations and you can also aggro a mob who is far away from you unlike warriors who will have to charge in first or walk to the mob's position.And not to mention paladins also have a tear skill that makes their melee skills ranged for some seconds.As for aggro paladins have righteous word which is a single target aggro skill (if you pick all its rubies ofc) while warriors have cruelty skill which increases their aggro by a considerable % so once a warrior AOE s they can aggro better than paladins and that's why crushing blow is very good for warr tank but paladins will sometimes have to stack righteous word on every single mob in AOE fights and use tab key to make it fast and both have intimidation skill which is like an insta taunt.


As for DPS I have a level 60 physical DPS paladin with level 3 and 2 runes,very low runes right? I almost do damage=to a level 5 runes warr dps and sometimes beat damage of a level 6 runes mage in single target fights so paladins have strong single target DPS and all what binds you is energy and rarely cannons of light in single target fights as for AOE s I guess warriors are better since Paladins will need cannons of light and their interdiction got nerfed recently to half its initial damage so I guess warrior's battle frenzy+crushing blow=GG in AOE s :P but paladins also have better DOTs than warr have..Warriors only have jagged slice skill for single target bleeding which needs combat advantage and you need rubies for it so it won't wear off fast but paladins have condemnation which is kinda spammable and can become an AOE DOT if used in combination with interdiction.Both have ferocity aura but warriors have 3 rubies that remove the less armor penalty from it while paladins don't but paladins have many barrier management skills so if you know how to use them the right way,you should be okay.

As for PVP:
First of all: immunity vs CC:Warriors have like 4-6 rubies that halves almost all CC types as far as I remember while paladins have like 3 or 4 will power rubies.

Second: CC :Warriors have many CC skills that mostly either knocks down or slows(kick,headbutt,bash,shield slam,charge,hack,another slow skill with bow,crushing blow) while paladins have kinda less CC skills but I guess their CC s have higher duration so paladins have a blind and stun and a silence and a slow (Shining blade,Autodaf,Immobilizing,Shield slam and charge) so both have considerable CC though most of time I suffer more from warrior's CC s or they CC lock me more.Also paladins have like half of their CC s ranged while warriors only have 1 ranged slowing CC.

I can't really decide which is better but I'd say choose what suits your playing style best..I for one like physical DPS paladin most though many people hate it atm and I think I do fine with it even with low runes (TBH I also find tanking so stressing specially with paladins and you always need to press tab in AOE pulls so it becomes stressing to tank specially if your runes are far lower than your party's runes so simply they won't accept anyone to tank if you're not well prepared for the task because,simply if you die,all party might die but if a DPS dies then it won't affect the party as much..Tanks and healers are the most sensitive roles in a party so if you are gonna tank in general then make sure your velhuru is suitable compared to other party members..Just an advice.Otherwise some people (or many) will always blame you for any mistake or loss the party gets even if it's not your fault,I know it might be unfair sometimes but that's what happens at many times :c
Hilver level 60 Kanian great skald.

25

Thursday, May 15th 2014, 9:06pm

Nyashiro

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@Zaguardo Was interesting to read your thoughts :D

Quoted

pvp wise war atm is not that good since is the squishiest melee (after warden that is obv UP and is about to get a rework). u can notice by just killing any war random charging.
Phys paladin is the squishiest melee class I believe. And yes, people play those in pvp for fun. It is also more difficult for a phys paladin to burst down a guy because they don't have that many knockdowns (and increased damage on knockdowned enemies by what, 25%?) I agree that paladins can hit like trucks but warriors are far better in means of focusing a target. (Source: was a warrior myself for all the way till 5.0.0 patch and 2 weeks after it went live)

Quoted

Tho u can prove me wrong if u can by picking any eclipse tank n spank boss and send ur warrior tanking it and prove me he can do better than a pally (dmg and tank wise, but he wont keep aggro from pally so w/e).
In eclipse having aggro is simply not enough and it doesn't matter. Bosses there (as in Teps Pyramid) require tactics and frequent taunting. Both paladin and warrior tanks can taunt a mob every 20 seconds and the aggro doesn't matter whatever you do. And as a former warrior tank I can say that holding aggro was very easy even with 1h + shield. The only problem I had was survivability because I have lvl 8 runes on defense and close to none support skills to keep myself and the party alive longer.

Edit/P.S. How many times I wished that warriors had battle ress... It probably was more than the crystals I paid for paladin morpher :D
Blindoz
Blindos
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And so on..

26

Thursday, May 15th 2014, 9:17pm

dragonsvk8

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I've never seen a bard outdmg a war in raid (at least in single target)...
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27

Thursday, May 15th 2014, 9:44pm

Zaguardo

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@Zaguardo Was interesting to read your thoughts


hope ur not a troll! <3

Phys paladin is the squishiest melee class I believe. And yes, people play those in pvp for fun. It is also more difficult for a phys paladin to burst down a guy because they don't have that many knockdowns (and increased damage on knockdowned enemies by what, 25%?) I agree that paladins can hit like trucks but warriors are far better in means of focusing a target. (Source: was a warrior myself for all the way till 5.0.0 patch and 2 weeks after it went live)


as i said, 2h war > 2h pally, thats pretty well known. tho playn 2h pally is just 4fun, since no1 would do that hoping to be better than 1h+shield pally. at least, i hope we all know this lol. what we dunno is that ballade >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warrior all day long. and that means ppl wont get knocked aka i dont do 25% more dmg and i cant use my best dps skill (arching blow) aka this sox. plus, the second i manage to hit, the simple unability to use my anger rubies makes it way too easy for healers to ignore my dps, another fact.

ytd i went in TP with my reinc pally (green glyphs, green gear but purple wand). i actually stole aggro from my tank war (and i wasnt even using sacred sunrise cuz i was waiting my turn to taunt the bouncer). that was is full blue, runes 887 i had 988 so not that much to steal skillsless. but besides that, is ALL about survivability, thats the point: pally has twice the survivability of a war ATM. 2h pally is actually tanking better just because of barriers... the main reason why war wil NEVER tank as pally without agi.

not like i regret being a war, but i still think this is a simple fact. pally is made to tank, war isnt (at least, not anymore)

back to ZAK, war was supposed to bring the raid in front of the boss, and let pally tank it. why cuz warkaz at 20 stacks hits 2m and pally is the only one able to tank it. recently we managed to tank with 2h weapon since the huge amount of dodge. today we suck with shield, and is NOT because of runes, with a pally you would tank it 100%.

as for aoe aggro pally keeps it harder, but is not tha timpossible for raid to wait 10 secs to aoe. focus first sacred word and let him build, then there is no way for him to lose aggro.

not to mention the fact pally has battle res that is 2x more improtant than war 2x dps (since even eingeneer has ... ?)

I've never seen a bard outdmg a war in raid (at least in single target)...


watch zakor streaming then if u wanna have ur first time :)

but as for tankiness Warriors have dodge rubies


nope. no more dodge cuz no more agi (or this post wouldnt exist at :D)
~ Do what you want cause a Pirate is free ~
~ You are a Pirate! ~

28

Thursday, May 15th 2014, 10:09pm

Zaguardo

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wts Artist


gg wp
~ Do what you want cause a Pirate is free ~
~ You are a Pirate! ~

29

Friday, May 16th 2014, 10:54am

Every raid is different and every player has different skills, runes, CS items, stuff, so it's almost impossible to judge a class by taking 2 players.

Ofc you can say that Bard Dps > Scout or Mage DPS > Psio,

But for some class, like Pala, War, Mago, Bards, they are all strong in their way.

In our raids (Flibu) we have a lot of War at the top because we have a lot of war with big runes and all, and they are old players that knows how to play. The result is you can find 3 to 4 war in the top 5 sometimes. Doesnt means that War are better, but that they are a strenght for our guild. Some guilds can have more Op Mages, or more Op Bards...

Truth is they are 4 good class, pretty much well balance imo. You can't really say that Pala own War or vice-versa, or it's really close, with their pro and cons.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Heartnet" (May 16th 2014, 12:21pm)


30

Friday, May 16th 2014, 11:47am

Quoted

nope. no more dodge cuz no more agi (or this post wouldnt exist at :D)


You still dodge, even though there isn't agi...

31

Friday, May 16th 2014, 2:46pm

Zaguardo

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Quoted

nope. no more dodge cuz no more agi (or this post wouldnt exist at :D)


You still dodge, even though there isn't agi...


so is not hard for you to explain the reason, right?

Every raid is different and every player has different skills, runes, CS items, stuff, so it's almost impossible to judge a class by taking 2 players.


assume same runes, same gers, same skills. can u judge objectively by that?
~ Do what you want cause a Pirate is free ~
~ You are a Pirate! ~

32

Friday, May 16th 2014, 3:08pm

assume same runes, same gers, same skills. can u judge objectively by that?
You can have an idea, but I'm sure that if you take the 10 best Pala of the server and the 10 best war of the server, and you put them in a raid against a boss that doesn't move, you will not have something like 5 pala first then 5 war, but a mix. Because first of all there is the random part of the damages, crit, dodge etc, and they are 2 classes that can be on top.

I'm not saying they are 100% equal, but I think the difference is too small to be seen with all the variables that are the people behind the screen, the runes, the CS in general, the luck, the stats, the PC and some other stuff.

That's why for me, War and Pal are both good class, I know good pala and good war, and I have seen them be first, second, 5th...

Then, I'm only talking about pure PVE DPS, because it's easier to judge.

In tanking I think Pala is better for 1 mob, War for packs. But both can tank everything.

33

Friday, May 16th 2014, 3:30pm

Quoted

nope. no more dodge cuz no more agi (or this post wouldnt exist at :D)


You still dodge, even though there isn't agi...


so is not hard for you to explain the reason, right?


Agility has been removed but dodge, parry and block still all exist in the game. I don't know the exact base percentage chance to dodge but there is one and warrior's ruby increase your dodge, parry and block chance (which I don't believe Paladins get). So, while they don't dodge, parry, block as much as they used to they do still dodge.

34

Friday, May 16th 2014, 3:48pm

Zaguardo

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Agility has been removed but dodge, parry and block still all exist in the game. I don't know the exact base percentage chance to dodge but there is one and warrior's ruby increase your dodge, parry and block chance (which I don't believe Paladins get). So, while they don't dodge, parry, block as much as they used to they do still dodge.


dude why u talk randomly? srsly i meant this post to be a serious one.. warden is THE ONLY CLASS THAT CAN DODGE THX TO A DODGE RUBY. those are not my words, programmers said.

Quoted

there is one and warrior's ruby increase your dodge, parry and block chance


http://en.allodswiki.ru/calc/#!1!111....…...!a/A!a/A!a/A

point us that ruby

In tanking I think Pala is better for 1 mob, War for packs. But both can tank everything.


my point is that now is no more like this since war is way more papermade than pally. i am 100% sure of that and im not he only one. this is a point i have by having a noob pally reinc tanking more than my full geared war. does that count something or not yet lol?

u cannot compare pally with war in tanking, cince pally was made for tank purpose. the simple existance of barriers makes a pally 3 times better than a war, not to mention barriers skills ofc... really guys that shouldnt be even argument of discussion...

i do agree then that single players skills are what moves the toon the most (aswell as build, but it's related, so...). but if u remove that from the equation, a pro pally wil ALWAYS tank more than any pro war.

cmon guys, war cant use verdict or ferocity with shield... 2 features... is more like asking a bird not to fly than anything else. war is meant to DPS but RIGHT NOW he doesnt as intended. that's all. maybe when we will have a fully geared war that issue will be removed. still, that just means that pally will be even more tnaky than he would be now.
~ Do what you want cause a Pirate is free ~
~ You are a Pirate! ~

35

Friday, May 16th 2014, 3:57pm

Resha

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Heartnet <3 The voice of the reason :thumbup:

The truth is: there are raids with war as main tank which down boss in Eclypse. It's enough for me to say that the war is good tank too.
Drood retraité !

36

Friday, May 16th 2014, 4:03pm

Zaguardo

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Heartnet <3 The voice of the reason

The truth is: there are raids with war as main tank which down boss in Eclypse. It's enough for me to say that the war is good tank too.


even bard is a good tank m8, i would go for that.

rofl

srsly guys, just srsly...
~ Do what you want cause a Pirate is free ~
~ You are a Pirate! ~

37

Friday, May 16th 2014, 10:05pm

"It is also more difficult for a phys paladin to burst down a guy because
they don't have that many knockdowns (and increased damage on
knockdowned enemies by what, 25%?) I agree that paladins can hit like
trucks but warriors are far better in means of focusing a target. "
Everything has an end:
In Russian talent calculator (version 5.0.1?) warrior instead of +8/16/25% dmg has effect which gives 10 CA every second for 1/2/3 seconds.
"Streetfighter" rubies increase range of "Charge", not knockdown duration. They also increase chance of knockdown for "Forceful Kick" ("Charge" in English version but it can be a mistake).

For Palladins I heard about nerf in "Tenacity" skill.

38

Friday, May 16th 2014, 10:34pm

Zaguardo

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"It is also more difficult for a phys paladin to burst down a guy because
they don't have that many knockdowns (and increased damage on
knockdowned enemies by what, 25%?) I agree that paladins can hit like
trucks but warriors are far better in means of focusing a target. "
Everything has an end:
In Russian talent calculator (version 5.0.1?) warrior instead of +8/16/25% dmg has effect which gives 10 CA every second for 1/2/3 seconds.
"Streetfighter" rubies increase range of "Charge", not knockdown duration. They also increase chance of knockdown for "Forceful Kick" ("Charge" in English version but it can be a mistake).

For Palladins I heard about nerf in "Tenacity" skill.


exactly mate. those rubies do exactly that. props for you since u do know exactly what war does while others don't :D
~ Do what you want cause a Pirate is free ~
~ You are a Pirate! ~

39

Saturday, May 17th 2014, 10:44am

hi all, sorry for join this awesome discussion even if i have not play tanks for 3 years but i think for this reason i can give an external point of view without passion.

What is exactly a tank? 1st and most important = treath / 2nd = incoming dmg mitigation


1)
both class work fine in treath management, both can do single target and aoe. I prefer pala in single and war in aoe and i will explain why (if it is really necessary).


2)
paladin can manage 3 barries for all fight - warrior need 10 seconds without take dmg for full regenerate his single barrier (so tennis target between 2 wars would work fine)
there is an understimate (from all you) option: shield fighter, that imho deserve the time of reasoning instead of flaming.
  • tenacity = supreme incoming dmg reduction till wound complexity appear
  • Hexed rubies = only for the fact to equipping a shield at 50% chance the incoming dmg take a reduction (the amount increase with gear)
  • Might over Magic = capability to block WHATEVER kind of attack (turn on brain about dots)

  • Master of Defense = shield block rate increased of 40%
  • Take Cover = increase block rate of 50% for 8 sec every 20 sec
  • a warrior can regenerate energy every time he block with shield (that is not necessary imho, but turn on brain about dots or what happen when he tank 10 mobs)

  • Whilwind dmg NO LONGER depend from weapon's damage but from DPS (enormous improvement for fast weapons, and fast weapons have higher hit frequency and Combat Advantage generation and consume LESS energy)

    follow my vision

    i see a warrior with Cruelty on, fastest 1h and shield, charging, hitting, turning on take cover, and.....perma spinning here and there over the mobs taking all them on same spot, and continue to spin more and more, keeping massive treath of all them on him, letting aoe damage dealers to do their job and healer to easy focus heals on a single target (a tough target).

    Since with coming of mercenaries the average players are not longer capables to play crowd controls way and....when someone try to do, it take really too long time every pull, since i think that time is money...

    stealing words from someone much more important then me, <<i have a dream>>, i looking for trues aoe tanks.

    About bards... we have some enormous vulnerabilities, but....i will not share if you not are a GM, CM, Dev or Mod ;)
    please stop to write lies if you don't know exactly what you are talking about.

    And about Rikudo on Tep Pyramid, please ignore, we never killed a boss in TP so let's stay in silence, right Zag?

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Murak" (May 17th 2014, 10:50am)


40

Saturday, May 17th 2014, 12:29pm

Nyashiro

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Quoted

a warrior can regenerate energy every time he block with shield (that is not necessary imho, but turn on brain about dots or what happen when he tank 10 mobs)
Not every time, I believe it has a cooldown between the regen times.

And also warriors are a bit worse in tanking because of Determination stat. With barrier warrior can't build up aggro from the first spin because he doesn't get any determination. Paladin just can keep a 200k barrier before each new pull for instant 100% determination resulting in +120% damage done increase (that's almost enough with 1 interdiction to keep aggro at the start, same like warr would do a spin without any interdiction)

And by the way, it reaaaally depends on the paladin's gameplay skills. Some pala take AGES to take agro from 4 mobs, others can do it in no more than 7 seconds* , pretty much same as warr takes to build up for a spin. *[personally as a pala I have no problems with aoe tanking.]


Back to my point.. Physical pala is still good in PvP even though it's squishy. If you don't believe me, let's have a duel. :D
Blindoz
Blindos
Blintrez
And so on..

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